Posts by Bona Dea

37

What does the average Witness know?

by Grunt in

i have to wonder what the average witness today knows?

i guess they are under orders not to talk to anyone that might actually be able to inform them of any facts that are negative or unflattering to the society, but what have they found out anyway, through whatever means, even the publications?.

1. do they know that russell got a lot of dates from the measurements of pyramids, including 1914?

Bona Dea

Waiting said:

8. Does the average - longtime - witness know that while he wrote letters to the Malawi government to state his plea to stop the slaughter of Jehovah's Witnesses for not buying a $.25 political card.......elders in Mexico wrote to the Society for guidance on how to approach their legal, ethical, problem.

I asked Brother Elder about this. You would not believe his response. "Well, I guess all the first century christians should've been angry at Peter for denying Christ." Um, ok. I saw his point but it was a very lame response. Peter denied knowing Christ to save his own butt...and later on other Christians died because they refused to deny the name of Christ. Ok. Got it. BUT did Peter have to "ask permission" from a Governing Body to deny Christ or did he "in his own will" deny Christ. Was he kicked out of the congregation for denying Christ? When Christ came back did he give Peter a big lecture or a kick in the arse for doing this? What about those who decided to die for the name of Christ? Would they've been disfellowshiped had they done otherwise?

It amazes me, how desperate some people are to defend their faith, that they make goofy justifications such as this one.

Bona

"Half the world is composed of idiots, the other half of people clever enough to take indecent advantage of them."
-Walter Kerr

37

What does the average Witness know?

by Grunt in

i have to wonder what the average witness today knows?

i guess they are under orders not to talk to anyone that might actually be able to inform them of any facts that are negative or unflattering to the society, but what have they found out anyway, through whatever means, even the publications?.

1. do they know that russell got a lot of dates from the measurements of pyramids, including 1914?

Bona Dea

Since I am not a witness and never have been, I will answer some of these questions as was answered to me by Brother Elder, the witness with whom I used to study. This in no way means, every witness knows these things or would react this way upon hearing them. This has just been my experience...

1. Do they know that Russell got a lot of dates from the measurements of pyramids, including 1914? I wonder if the average Witness knows where he is buried, or that he has a pyramid on his grave?

Brother Elder knew that. His response was that compared to the history of Christendom, that the WTs was pale in comparison. He didn't know about heaven being in Plaides(sp?)...but used the same reasoning (the ole finger-pointing-"they did nastier things than we did" tactic).

2. Does the average witness know that the Society teaches that Christ is not their mediator? Most I have talked to don't but it has been printed a lot of different places at a lot of different times. I would like to know just how many are really aware of it or its implications.

I didn't learn this tidbit of info until after we (the witnesses and I) had discontinued our study. But when Brother Elder prayed, he always ended by saying, "in Jesus name, amen"...so, I don't know if he knows or not...

3. Does the average "publisher" realize that the organization decided to make the publications available for "donations" to avoid taxes? That it was done AFTER having been involved in a court case as a legal "friend" to Jimmy Swaggart while he fought those taxes, or that they still charge for the publications in other places with different tax laws? Places where money is much more scarce?

He knew this, too. He told me before I ever found it out on my own. He never mentioned, however, that they still charge for publications in other places with diff tax laws. I didn't know that (until just now). I'll have to ask him about that and see what he says.

4. Could the average Witness know about all the components of blood being legal or about material made from cow's blood being approved in some cases by the Organization? I hope they know, it means thier lives and the lives of their loved ones. I tried to tell my father this and he shook his head, "Son, we don't take blood, any blood at all!" He doesn't know almost all blood parts are ok, and could die as a result. I wish he knew.

I don't think he knows this. He gave me that new blood video to watch several months ago and I don't remember it mentioning anything about it either. Actually, I'm quite positive he doesn't know.

5. Are most of the members of the congregation aware of the flip-flops of the past on everything from all Witnesses being ministers, refusing alternative service, the changed understands on what fornication was, the uproar and divorces caused over the Organization's changed views on oral sex, the change saying transplants are ok from taking transplants being cannibalism? If they do know, I wonder if they have thought about how many lives were ruined by the "old" views and of the humiliation of the people because of them?

Oh yes. I'm not sure if he is aware of every exact issue that you've mentioned here but he knows that they change their minds every other minute (clarification: that is an exaggeration...just in case someone decides to attack me) and seems to justify it as being "teachable" and that it is good that when they see that they are in error that they are willing to change policy, unlike other churches (finger-pointing tactic, again), who will continue to do something even though they know it's wrong....

6. Do you think the big change on "This Generation" impacted the regular people who make up the organization very hard? Do they know about all the changes in ages to support it before it was dropped? How the ages of the "generation" were stretched before it was dropped? Did they think about it and just how enormous that change was in relation to all the statements they had made about it? Or did they just gulp and swallow it all like castor oil and refuse to think about it?

I think that the initial reaction probably depends on each individual but in the end (after the thinking and the doubting and the trying to reason with ones self) they just accept it;..."they just gulp and swallow it all like castor oil and refuse to think about it..."

7. Do you think most Witnesses have lost loved ones to "apostasy" seen young relatives walk away, and lost their confidence in the Watchtower Society as being the TRUTH, the only ones with the truth?

If a person has an ounce of love, compassion, or any of those endearing qualities, you would think that they would. They probably hurt a little, and may even question this particular practice (shunning)...But do "most" of them lose confidence in the truth (in it's entirety)?...I seriously doubt it.

I think it all goes back to what path said:

"Most know it is an imperfect organization with "some" flaws that has made "some" mistakes. I think most still believe it is "the truth" and that "there is nowhere else to go".
When presented with specific reasons why the organization is wrong, many just don't want to go there or they simply don't care. I think there are just a handful that understand the big picture and yet continue actively supporting this arrangement."

BTW, great thread!
bona

"Half the world is composed of idiots, the other half of people clever enough to take indecent advantage of them."
-Walter Kerr

86

Silliest thing that Witnesses told you was wrong?

by gilwarrior in

there are two things.

in the early and mid 80s there were witnesses saying that the cartoon characters the smurfs were not acceptable for witnesses.

i had two smurf cartoon books and my mother made me throw them away.

Bona Dea

Also do any of you remember the song that had the lyrics in it "somebody's knocking" I don't remember who sung it but it was a woman, but her voice was very masculine. So at one public talk the elder was using this song about how it was promoting homoseuality, becasue of the line "...Devil in blue jeans.......". I was really puzzeled and after the meeting I went up to brother K*** and asked him if he had any idea who sang that song, he said no, I said well it was a woman not a man, he just shrugged his shoulders and walked away.

I remember that song. The woman who sang that was Terri Gibb(s)- can't remember gibb or gibbs? Anyhow, I met her about 15 years ago...she sang at our church (in my church going days)...and had totally revised that "somebody's knocking" song to be a christian song. Your story is so hilarious!! This woman was so nice and to think she was accused of being a man!!! I'd hate to hear what he thought about Carly Simon or Carole King...they sound kinda masculine too.

"Half the world is composed of idiots, the other half of people clever enough to take indecent advantage of them."
-Walter Kerr

49

I've been studying.........

by bchapp in

jw
friends

i have been studying with the jw's for several years.

they have been pressuring me to become one of them, but something seems to be holding me back, instinct maybe?

i agree a lot of their teaching are good, and i'm sure are the truth but here are a few of the things that bother me: jw's use the scripture hebrews 10:25 not forsaking the gathering of yourselves together...... to justify their meetings.

Bona Dea

Hi Bchapp,

I could hug your neck. I was pretty much where you are just a couple of mos ago. I've never been baptized either but I studied for years and questioned many things. After finding out some of the things I have, I simply can't go back.

There are links at the bottom of the page that are very helpful. I haven't read either of the Ray Franz books but many say they are very good. I'm in a hurry now...I wish I had more time to say more things. I'll have to come back and comment more later.

Welcome!!!

"Half the world is composed of idiots, the other half of people clever enough to take indecent advantage of them."
-Walter Kerr

23

Is life really better out of the org?

by sleepy in

jw
friends

it strikes me that as witnesses most can find many faults with the world and reasons why they want to be no part of it.. things are often exagerated or demonised in the witneses eyes.. does the same thing happen in reverse when you leave the org?.

do we blow things up out of proportion to how they really are?.

are we really that much happier as people than we were in the org?.

Bona Dea

The WTS sneer at 'apostates' calling them 'confused' and unable to offer anybody any real spiritual direction once they leave the fold....What has happened is that we have all become people again, plain and simple. Many have to re-discover their humanity, chart their own course, grapple with their own demons, rather than like children be kept in suspended hibernation emotionally, by spoon-fed philosophies.

Hilary_Step, I just had to respond and say I LOVE the way you put that into words. It's so true.

8

A Religion worth looking into

by TweetieBird in

jw
friends

religion in the news.

by patty henetz .

salt lake city (ap) - claude nowell was a 30-year-old graphics salesman and practicing mormon who says he was just trying to relax after work when the hairless, blue, otherworldly beings first came to him.. the 1975 visitation lasted about 10 minutes - enough time to transport nowell to a quiet place where an enormous pyramid stood on a green lawn under a blue sky filled with stars.. when he came to, nowell immediately suspected his druggie co-workers had spiked his late-afternoon doughnut.. but then, nowell claims, there were more visitations from the blue beings - leading him to decide that he had been chosen to propagate summum, a belief system incorporating winemaking, mummification and sexual ecstasy.

Bona Dea

LOL....I just read this the other day...and I thought to myself, this man has got it all figured out

Here's a link to the article:
http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/ap20020426_10.html

"Half the world is composed of idiots, the other half of people clever enough to take indecent advantage of them."
-Walter Kerr

80

INCREDIBLE STUFF SAID @ BOOK STUDY!

by Mister Biggs in

ironically, we were discussing the watchman who stays awake night and day.. anyway, something was said that made me awaken and pay careful attention.

please, if anyone else who got this same information at their book study, please share it.. here goes:.

there was a picture of a man standing on the watchtower keeping on the look out.

Bona Dea

.

18

JW Blood Ban Checklist: Can Anyone Help Here?

by Room 215 in

i was thinking mainly of lee elder, but it seems that that a concise, user-friendly list of the permissible/prohibited blood fractions of current jw policy would be more than a mere convenience... it has life-saving potential!

the mere fact that the watchtower does not see fit to clear the air and print a simple summary of the current blood fraction policy in a ``question from readers'' article or something.. their failure to do so thus far speaks volumes as to how little regard they have for the lives of their drones especially of the children who, in view of the stagnation of the organization, are the society's most promising -- and maybe only -- source of future growth.

brooklyn seems to prefer distributing ``no blood'' cards to the flock and apparently has no interest in clarifying a matter they alone have obfuscated by their confusing and often contradictory rhetoric.

Bona Dea

Try this link:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=19550&site=3

I found it very informative.

Bona

35

How many here are still active JWs? If not.....

by Leander in

jw
friends

when did you leave?.

what prompted you to doubt/leave the organization?.

for those who are still active, do you plan on leaving soon?

Bona Dea

Hi Leander,

My situation isn't a whole lot different than yours except none of my family are baptized JWs. My husband is a fervent believer in everything they teach. He hasn't mentioned becoming baptized but it would not surprise me if he does this year. We studied with the witnesses for many years and even behaved as the average dub but I (and I think my husband, as well) never felt quite "ready" to take the plunge. I, personally, feel like baptism is serious business...and I was never willing, I suppose, to commit to that.

Anyhow, I had read many negative things about the org but made excuses for them and justified their reasoning on certain doctrines/rules in my own mind...because I needed to believe that I had finally found "the truth". But deep down, I think I knew all along. It wasn't until I read the whole UN mess and silentlambs.org, that I snapped out of it, and took a good long look at all the things I had been taught and all the "negative" things I had read. And I'm still looking...

I too, am having a hard time believing in the bible at this point, as well. Just one small reason being, if this was truly God's word how is it so many can find different "truths" within...and we are supposed to just "know" whose truth to listen to. You'd think that, especially considering the consequences of being wrong (annihilation, destruction), that our "loving" heavenly Father could've made things a little more easier and plainer for us to understand. There are a ton of other reasons why my faith in the bible has began to dwindle but too many to go into here.

My husband is still going to the meetings, it seems now (since I did a u-turn) more so than ever. I don't go at all...except when he gives a talk. We have children and we have reached a fair compromise concerning them. So, we are working through this. It is awkward and hard at times, however. I believe he knows the truth about the truth, deep down, but he isn't ready to let it go. I think we all have to work that out for ourselves.

I wish you the best.

Bona Dea

"Half the world is composed of idiots, the other half of people clever enough to take indecent advantage of them."
-Walter Kerr

46

Proof of the "historical" Jesus...

by simwitness in

been wondering about this lately.... what proof (outside the bible, of course) do we have for the "historical jesus"?.

in my earlier days (post jw to "born again christian") i remember reading that the one thing that differentiates christianity vs. "all the others" was that we had secular historical proof that there was a man that was called jesus, who died on a cross and was resurrected.

now i am wondering just what that proof is/was?

Bona Dea

One thing I've always been curious about was the wise men from the east, who followed the star.

Has there been anything written in Eastern History about this?

I would think that would be a notable thing. It does seem as though there would be some sort of documentation (besides that found in the bible) about the kings who carried gifts to a child that they had found by following a star to a stable. I mean, that is the kind of stuff that fables and folk stories that you hand down through generations is made of...if nothing else, it seems as though there would be a story about it in their culture.

Does anyone know if there is any such "story" or documentation in the Orient?

"Half the world is composed of idiots, the other half of people clever enough to take indecent advantage of them."
-Walter Kerr